Is Gobekli the world's oldest temple, or Stone Age condo?

Is Gobekli the world's oldest temple, or just a tricked-out Stone Age condo?

By Randy Boswell, Postmedia NewsOctober 10, 2011

Undated handout photo of a Wikipedia Commons closeup of one of the decorated pillars at Göbekli Tepe is southern Turkey.

Photograph by: Handout, Postmedia News

A Canadian scientist is shaking up the world of archeology after challenging high-profile claims - including June's cover story in the National Geographic - that an ancient site in Turkey is the world's oldest-known temple and represents "the birth of religion."

University of Toronto professor Ted Banning argues the sensational ruins just north of the Syrian border in southern Turkey may represent an elaborately decorated communal dwelling rather than a shrine to the gods.

What do you think?

Thus far all the evidence we see at Göbekli Tepe the people lived in relative peace for over 3000 years. The site shows none of the signs one would expect from conflicts. This does not 100% rule out the possibility, but thus far there is none of the expected evidence one would expect. There have not been any human remains discovered so we do not have this information to go by. But we also do not see any signs that victory in battle would produce in countless other ancient and modern cultures.

We also know this, it takes a rather sophisticated culture to build and operate such a complex. It takes and even more forward thinking culture to completely bury a site that was in continuous use for 3000 years and to do it with such delicate care.

Thus far we have been convinced by most accounts that no long term organized society existed without great battles and conquests. Prior to this discovery it seemed most cultures could not last perhaps a few hundred years peacefully. If this turns out to be confirmed at Göbekli Tepe we will have a completely new insight on how a culture can thrive through what was certainly very difficult times.

Göbekli Tepe has like every major discovery created more questions than it has yet to answer. For example, where did everyone live? There are no signs of human habitation thus far unearthed. Professor Schmidt has found himself also at odds about the use of this site. He had postulated that this site was purely ceremonial however his new findings may now change this view.
(This Data is published and is 100% conjecture as is all insights on ancient cultures. However there is quite a bit of published evidence that concludes a peaceful culture. This data will be very fiercely challenged).

In Our Lifetimes...

This is just some of the grand discoveries that has been found up until this point. The site is not even 15% unearthed (we have unearthed 3 Circle complexes, there are at least 20 more with other structures yet to be unearthed, some may be older then 13,000 years). There are no doubts that there will be far more truly world changing discoveries. And just as fascinating is the cultures that lead up to Göbekli Tepe as it is clear there had to be a few thousand years of evolution of culture to produce what we see here today.

All of us will stand witness, in this generation, to discoveries that perhaps our ancient family hoped us to rediscover, as a testament to not only what we could do, but who we really are.

Via Christopher Reiss.

20 Comments • 16:48 on Fri Jul 22 2011

Wikipedia seems to indicate that there was not significant agriculture happening at Gobleki Tepe, and in fact, the emergence of agriculture and animal husbandry was the likely cause for the structure being abandoned.

I also don't see any reference to beer production for Gobekli Tepe, though there is a reference for early production at Godin Tepe, which is a site in Iran, dated to 3000BC.

There no doubt was a strange and complex culture there, long long ago, but that doesn't necessarily change history. It was isolated and it largely died out, in a kind of failed experiment. It was one site, so its large scale impact is probably not that significant, where as ancient Sumer was made up of many dozens of cities, which is why it had such an impact. (The picture you have of the written language is one from Sumer, not Gobekli Tepe, and that's not very clear in your answer)

John Clover • 18:27 on Fri Jul 22 2011

Hi John,

Good points!

Most of this is very recent discoveries by Professor Schmidt and peer review publication should be forthcoming.

The Plant domestication seem to be indicated by a number of new features seen next to the primary site. There are signs of water irrigation and regular cultivation. Thus far I do not have links to this as this is from direct communications with Professor Schmidt. I will post them when they become available.

Thus far there are no indication of Animal husbandry but Professor Schmidt feels that animals were likely to be used in the assembly of these structures. I think it is premature to assume wither way at this point.

The Beer production is still being studied and has thus far not been published. Professor Schmidt has discovered all the signs that lead him to postulate on Beer Production and ovens used for primitive breads. History always seems to have the two productions tied together. There is this National Geography mention about the discovery last last year (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.co...).

The site was in continuous use for over 3000 years and as such I would not consider it an experiment by any measure. 13,000 years ago the area was far different from how it appears today. It was the ending of a mini "Ice Age" that made this region flourish with many plants and animals.

There is no doubt that about 5000 years later Sumer and other regions, perhaps the Indus Valley started to form more complex cultures. And those cultures are very fascinating on there own.

However, I would not be so fast as to say this as a fact. With Göbekli Tepe we have learned a very good insight, there may be far more complex cultures the predated or postdated this culture.

As I mentioned this site has casted such a shadow on what Historians had thought it is very slow moving to see any material change. Some of Professor Schmidt's work has been know for over a decade.

At this point we are still in early days at Göbekli-Tepe. There is far more to discover.

Brian Roemmele • 18:57 on Fri Jul 22 2011

Thanks for the info Brian, can you possibly include a line in your answer specifying that some of the content comes from the original, pending publication, research of Professor Schmidt, with perhaps, a link to his personal site?

John Clover • 19:0 on Fri Jul 22 2011

Hi John,

Thank you! Yes I can do this. I will have to clear with Professor Schmidt and/or assistants if any of his direct links can be published. Certainly one can search his public links. But I would like to share more with everyone on Quora.

Brian Roemmele • 19:2 on Fri Jul 22 2011

Thanks again Brian. Even including his name as the origin of a lot of the unpublished information you provided would be a good start, like you say, the claims do turn things on end, and since they aren't published yet, a quick search of the googles seems to contradict much of it. I don't doubt that these claims are true, just that without knowing the source, they comes across as fantastical :)

John Clover • 19:5 on Fri Jul 22 2011

Hi John,

Thank you! I just made an update. I will update more when I can get permission from Professor Schmidt.

Brian Roemmele • 19:16 on Fri Jul 22 2011

Hi Brian,

I would just like to suggest a change, and it probably should be in your own words, so I'm not going to use the edit feature.

You should start an answer like this with a clear disclaimer statement that your answer is based on original research that has not yet been published. This will put the lid on naysayer comments from people who do all of their fact-checking on Wikipedia, since Wikipedia specifically discourages O.R.

You should also make it clear, since the material is unpublished, that you have the explicit permission of the primary researcher to write an early disclosure.

Aside from that, it all looks like fascinating stuff. I've always suspected that humans accomplished much more than we know during the 30,000 or so years between the cave paintings in France and the rise of civilizations in Mesopotamia.

Paul Mareks • 21:28 on Fri Jul 22 2011

HI Paul,

Thank you!

I hear you loud and clear. Some of the stuff is not yet published. However other parts are. I put a disclaimer in bold at the top earlier. Please let me know how this looks?

Brian Roemmele • 21:40 on Fri Jul 22 2011

Brian,

What I was suggesting was a preamble that would appear as a first paragraph. Your explanation re: unpublished material kinda gets lost. Most importantly, I don't see any clear statement that you have Professor Schmidt's permission to announce his find prior to his own publication.

Paul Mareks • 21:47 on Fri Jul 22 2011

Hi Paul,

Thank you! I will try to work this in to a rewrite. I also added some brackets at the end of each listing for more clarity.

The information I posted here is not at all proprietary and is available for researchers that have been granted access to updates about the discoveries from the site.

I have not nor will I release data that Professor Schmidt has not released to researchers. Nor would I release his current unreleased hypothesis on this site.

His early data is available through normal university channels and directly from Şanlıurfa Museum and the Istanbul branch of German Archaeological Institute.

Brian Roemmele • 21:55 on Fri Jul 22 2011

It is pretty amazing stuff, and very beautiful, but your tone seems sensationalist. It's not like they found semiconductors buried down there, It's just a bunch of rocks. I'd say your excited exaggerations actually detracts from what is already spectacular without needing any embellishments.

Bjorn Tipling • 23:4 on Fri Jul 22 2011

Just amazing answer. When people ask me what quora is good for, i will refer to this particular answer. Just blown away. Thanks.

Christopher Reiss • 23:37 on Fri Jul 22 2011

Hi Bjorn,

Thank you! And yes I am very guilty of being over the top at times. It is the unfortunate side effect of being really excited over this subject. I am also somewhat biased (see the warning on the posting) about how this data has not been treated in the historically significant manner that I believe it should have.

And thus far history books and most of Wikipedia still do not cite these amazing finds and some of this data is 20 years old.

Maybe I subconsciously feel I have to compensate for this and bee sort of a cheerleader for what this really means for all of us. I shall endeavor to tone it down as much as humanly possible,

Brian Roemmele • 0:8 on Sat Jul 23 2011

Hi Christopher,

Thank you! I really appreciate this support. I also want to thank you for posting this question and directly asking for me to answer it. I hope it did shed some light on how this may change our view of human history. I know it has changed mine.

Brian Roemmele • 0:10 on Sat Jul 23 2011

I don't remember hearing about Göbekli Tepe before and I studied archaeology in college as part of my anthropology undergraduate degree. I could have forgotten though. I participated in an pueblo culture dig in Arizona, so the significance of this find is not lost on me. It is pretty exciting.

Bjorn Tipling • 0:41 on Sat Jul 23 2011

Brian,

Bjorn's point about sensationalism is well-founded. Readers on Quora tend to be a bit more objective than on most blog sites (except in the political groups) and appreciative of a reasoned, academic tone.

Try not to let the general public apathy towards discoveries like this get you down.

You have to remember that most people have formed their mental images of neolithic cultures at the movie theaters. So if you don't come up with evidence that the pyramids were built in 10,000 BC, using mammoths to haul the stone blocks, most of the masses just say "huh?" and reach for the remote control.

Personally, I think that this looks like one of the coolest archaeological finds in a very long time. The only thing that I could think of that would top it would be to find the buried ruins of Camelot complete with the tomb of King Arthur. Yeah, I know, not very likely. That's just my roundabout way of pointing out once again that this is really cool.

I look forward to reading the article or book when Professor Schmidt and company do get around to publishing.

Paul Mareks • 0:53 on Sat Jul 23 2011

Hi Paul,

Thank you! Guilty of being overly ecstatic about this find. And you are 100% correct about Quora! This place is absolutely amazing. I have learned a tremendous amount of information here. I also find the people that spend time here to be kindred sprits that live an breathe knowledge and discovery. It has motivated me to write here as this is the only place I have written in any amount on the Internet.

A King Arthur find would be leave me speechless!

Brian Roemmele • 1:14 on Sat Jul 23 2011

Hello,

Can you please tell, how come in the middle of the region where there is all this terrorism activities are going on, this site has been found, discovered and revealed without being affected by any of the events that constantly take place in the middle east and eastern Turkey?

Thank you.

Galego La • 9:58 on Sat Jul 23 2011

Great article but I am puzzled by your assertion that the carvings could not have been accomplished using stone tools. Have you ever looked at Olmec, Mayan and Aztec sculpture both large and small? All done with stone on stone. Have any metal tool remains been discovered at Göbekli Tepe? Any remains of smelters? Mines?

John Goetz • 13:42 on Sun Aug 14 2011

Hi John,

Thank you!

You have a very valid point. I do also conclude that the precision achieved by some ancient cultures portend to much more advanced technology.

Most of the building and art technology was highly guarded throughout history. There is a clear linage to as far back as one can dig that the entire process of what was than advanced technology was not openly available to the masses and thus not openly available for us to discover.

We can skip through the history of Sumer, Egypt, Greece, Sardina up through the medieval cathedrals and find secrets that are still not told or otherwise yielded from archeology. In the most recent past Freemasons can not disclose the true history of the medieval cathedrals, how they were built, we could not build a medium sized one with all the technology we have today and this was just a few hundred years ago.

We may not see the tools of these ancient people because they guarded them more dearly then life itself. With all of the the digs in Egypt only, have discovered some basic tools that could fill a small restroom. Where are the tools used by 100s of thousands of artisans and craftsmen? Most of these ancients will tell us, they destroyed them.

The best stone workers in Italy were asked to try to create a Göbekli Tepe pilliar with a simple relief using Moderen tools, they gave up after 14 months.

This is an example of a very, very rare mold for prehaps Brozen that is at least 12,000 years old and this we are told is impossible by current timelines:

http://www.pyramidsinbosnia.com/...

This was found deep in an artificail structure in europe.

There is evidence of smelting in Mezo America as far back as 8000 years. We can see smelted Silver T Pins used to fortify building blocks.

Thus I am comfortable to conclude that current timelines of technology are far off the mark and as we dig deeper we will find fragments of confirmations.

Brian Roemmele • 15:58 on Sun Aug 14 2011

.Göbekli Tepe Open Book Project

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In the News Update

Is Gobekli the world's oldest temple, or Stone Age condo?

Is Gobekli the world's oldest temple, or just a tricked-out Stone Age condo?

Undated handout photo of a Wikipedia Commons closeup of one of the decorated pillars at Göbekli Tepe is southern Turkey.

Photograph by: Handout, Postmedia News

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Background and links

37.2233°N 38.9224°E Get Link for Gloogle Earth

Subscribe

Translate

intro

In the News Update

Is Gobekli the world's oldest temple, or Stone Age condo?

Is Gobekli the world's oldest temple, or just a tricked-out Stone Age condo?

Undated handout photo of a Wikipedia Commons closeup of one of the decorated pillars at Göbekli Tepe is southern Turkey.

Photograph by: Handout, Postmedia News

news feed